Explaining the fediverse is a hard problem.
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
I like explaining it via analogy to email, since it's something even laypeople are familiar with. I mean email is federated in a sense as well, or at least it uses an open standard.
People are used to the idea that one email might be at domainone.com while another email is at domaintwo.com, but these emails can still talk to one another. Just imagine that, but instead of email, it's social media actions like posting, commenting, liking stuff and such. I feel like that gets the general idea across pretty well. It doesn't explain a lot of the edge cases though.
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
julian:All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with @andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
Please tag me/msg me if you want a reviewer of a draft! I have been working a little on "normal-human"-facing docs this month, so it's not entirely selfless of me to offer!
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
Finally the topic I’ve been waiting for.
Honestly.
Tbh. I have zoned out because of this and other non node related things.
I haven’t had time to distill APub and often refer back to my own past concepts that seemed to resemble activitypub to get my noodle around it.
So while I kinda get it I haven’t actually gotten into it.
Discourse has had it for sometime too but APub is disorientating, bottom line it’s like where do I start and why do I even start? What is or where is the problem it has solved? (As a user or site admin/owner)
If you can’t explain it in 20/30 words it will never gain mass appeal or adoption, if you can’t value it, it will remain invisible to the potential end user.
Even the responses (good contributions) but to my problem still can’t encapsulate it enough to simply answer the question, simply.
I had in early reaction to nascent implantation suggested, some UI changes to help with my own gut reaction to the interplay on community, but as time goes on I found the activity of activity pub really staring and amplify harmonies (theme) weak points to make skimming posts less appealing and of course life, and the times we live in too, getting in the way - Ah yea life that world outside but also the inner life too, perhaps the greater undiscovered country.
So let me see. How can it or what can Activity pub nested in NodeBB do to enable or enhance that journey?
Or are you actually (is NodeBB) on the right journey?
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I like explaining it via analogy to email, since it's something even laypeople are familiar with. I mean email is federated in a sense as well, or at least it uses an open standard.
People are used to the idea that one email might be at domainone.com while another email is at domaintwo.com, but these emails can still talk to one another. Just imagine that, but instead of email, it's social media actions like posting, commenting, liking stuff and such. I feel like that gets the general idea across pretty well. It doesn't explain a lot of the edge cases though.
sortekanin@socialhub.activitypub.rocks
It’s the word “federated”, that has always gotten me.
Federation yes, but in common parlance I don’t think I’d ever come across the word federated, and so it lacks an immediate referential model, it simply doesn’t click.
Whereas take email as the analogy to my federated word problem.
Everyone knew what mail was, this new one was simply electronic on or in the computer! Kinda magic. No paper. Beautiful. Wow attachments. Amazing. Solves so many material burdens. Awesome.
Very easy to get conceptually, i.e. instant!
Ugh but FEDERATED!
Wtaf is federated. See/search the definition.
It a medley of things about governments organisation etc. etc. most people don’t rightly know how their own govs truly work and most probably perceive it doesn’t work they know its probably big and bloated really wasteful full of unnecessary complexities. Sucks up your life via tax blah blah blah…
…but email, ah email what an incredible innovation, even granny/grandma gets it!
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sortekanin@socialhub.activitypub.rocks
It’s the word “federated”, that has always gotten me.
Federation yes, but in common parlance I don’t think I’d ever come across the word federated, and so it lacks an immediate referential model, it simply doesn’t click.
Whereas take email as the analogy to my federated word problem.
Everyone knew what mail was, this new one was simply electronic on or in the computer! Kinda magic. No paper. Beautiful. Wow attachments. Amazing. Solves so many material burdens. Awesome.
Very easy to get conceptually, i.e. instant!
Ugh but FEDERATED!
Wtaf is federated. See/search the definition.
It a medley of things about governments organisation etc. etc. most people don’t rightly know how their own govs truly work and most probably perceive it doesn’t work they know its probably big and bloated really wasteful full of unnecessary complexities. Sucks up your life via tax blah blah blah…
…but email, ah email what an incredible innovation, even granny/grandma gets it!
I do agree that the term "federation" and the use of the verb "to federate" (with its even weirder bastard cousin "defederate", which is not even a real word) is very unfortunate. It would be great to have a shorter and more fitting term. Something normal people would connect with more easily.
I find it especially problematic because its a word that translates poorly, at least in Danish. The Danish word for "federation" can also be used to mean an organization or association, which leads to further confusion. And the verbs for "to federate" and "to defederate" are also just... awkward and really just translate to "connect" and "stop connection" or something. It's not great.
Not that I have any alternatives to suggest honestly. And let's be real, even if I did, that ship has sailed, unless we can rally a big rebranding effort for the fediverse. Such a thing does not sound easy.
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
Omega,
- the ActivutyPub functionality is optional, so for those not interested its no issue, but looking into the future, developing it now seems 'on the right track'.
- your linguistic comment on federated vs federation, surely its just the past tense?
To use your email example, 'a document has been emailed', is legitimate language, and similar to the reflexive past phrase 'a site has been federated'?
A link has been linked, a download was downloaded etc
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Omega,
- the ActivutyPub functionality is optional, so for those not interested its no issue, but looking into the future, developing it now seems 'on the right track'.
- your linguistic comment on federated vs federation, surely its just the past tense?
To use your email example, 'a document has been emailed', is legitimate language, and similar to the reflexive past phrase 'a site has been federated'?
A link has been linked, a download was downloaded etc
Hey, In reverse I do the replying
- There was no cognitive model for the word "federated" in my head. Nothing happens when I read it. Federation. Federal. No problem here.
I genuinely never encountered the "past tense" of the word until Activity Pub hit the scene and nothing happens, no connection. If I am dull. So be it. You know. This is really the marketing / communication point.
Guess what, federated still doesn't click, it is a mental block, I haven't gotten to the bit where I have the physical analogue for federated.
Say for example after we get over the amazeballs of email analogue relation "mail" (or post/postal), then we come across the CC or BCC, wow a mass mail out, basically wow that's cool, oh what there is junk mail too? All these existing real world analogs perfectly communicated in a few words or just word, the analogous precedence experience.
Federated. None.
The email domain example is used, I had to read it twice, I got it the second time, but the engine still don't start. No fire lit. We're talking the light bulb moment and this is very different to the multitude of technical lightbulbs the tec/dev will encounter, the end user in the main, will not care to know as they will never have time to know, that's the mass market, one lightbulb for all and that should be enough.
- I'm just vibing off the idea, how to explain it not the technical choices. However, we do live with it on community in the raw state, so there is that. I suggested a filter or two types of modes iirc, I'll have to dig out that topic. Sunglasses or no sunglasses mode when NodeBB browsing.
What I need to do, personally, is hands on, set up activity pub technically on something somewhere to enjoy the whole, to take the next step whenever that happens.
I dunno yet if Activitypub is "wouldn't' it be cool if..." or "how did we do x to get to y before we had z, I'll never know!", the later is pending the former not unusual to be consigned to the dung heap of things time forgot.
Additionally, there are now people who have completely grown up in and live too much in cyberspace and cyberspace is actually retarding real space IMHO, the problems of cyberspace do not necessarily solve the problems of living space as much as they use to (mail > email). I think we're at a point where the things we engage and do are consuming more than it is now returning, and Ai is a clear milestone on that front.
Broad points, but here is the challenge, explain Acitivyt Pub in 20 maybe 30 words, within or not a NodeBB context, or both.
How about that as a challenge?
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
Sans researching this more, how about this:
>In a field I shout @person who I know is in another field. I can not see them as they are far away, but they hear me and can reply and I hear them, in a world of separated fields distance is zero using @person@another.field.com under activity pub
Does this work? I can't tell... you tell me.
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
Omega, I get it that you dont like the word Federated. Are you in USA where this has more historical connotations?
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
I accept your challenge to explain the utility in 20 words. Ironic challenge as your posts are lengthy literary masterpieces
So under 20 words with practical example
I already use Mastodon as apposed to Twitter so Im onboard. evehiclefan@mathstodon.xyz
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
julian I wanted to message mastodon account and reply from there, as part of Omegas 20 word challenge.
I didnt get the message to my Mathstodon.xyz account, why might that be? -
julian I wanted to message mastodon account and reply from there, as part of Omegas 20 word challenge.
I didnt get the message to my Mathstodon.xyz account, why might that be?eeeee where's the response you're looking for?
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
Honestly I think that if interoperability between different types of federated platforms Just Worked people would "understand" it more intuitively, because they'd see it in action instead of it having to be explained to them as an abstract concept.
I'm a fairly tech-savvy user, and I perfectly understand what federation is and how it works on a technical level, but even I find the UI aspects often confusing or downright impossible to figure out.
For example, I saw this thread from my Mastodon client because I followed the ActivityPub topic on this forum from my Mastodon account. In my Mastodon client the posts appear as boosts, but mostly with broken HTML formatting. I clicked through to this forum to read the thread properly. I then wanted to "like" / +1 a post, so I copied the permalink into my Mastodon client like I would for a post on a different Mastodon instance, but it couldn't find anything. In the end I had to log into my local account on this forum instead.Don't get me wrong, the UI problems are very difficult to get right. But I think they're more important than documentation. When it Just Works, people will grok it and documentation/explanation won't be needed.
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Honestly I think that if interoperability between different types of federated platforms Just Worked people would "understand" it more intuitively, because they'd see it in action instead of it having to be explained to them as an abstract concept.
I'm a fairly tech-savvy user, and I perfectly understand what federation is and how it works on a technical level, but even I find the UI aspects often confusing or downright impossible to figure out.
For example, I saw this thread from my Mastodon client because I followed the ActivityPub topic on this forum from my Mastodon account. In my Mastodon client the posts appear as boosts, but mostly with broken HTML formatting. I clicked through to this forum to read the thread properly. I then wanted to "like" / +1 a post, so I copied the permalink into my Mastodon client like I would for a post on a different Mastodon instance, but it couldn't find anything. In the end I had to log into my local account on this forum instead.Don't get me wrong, the UI problems are very difficult to get right. But I think they're more important than documentation. When it Just Works, people will grok it and documentation/explanation won't be needed.
caesar that's concerning, can you link me to the posts with broken html in your Mastodon account?
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caesar that's concerning, can you link me to the posts with broken html in your Mastodon account?
julian Here's the one I saw today: https://indieweb.social/@omega@community.nodebb.org/113101718634936122
However, I now see that the broken HTML appears in the original post on this forum, so it's not a federation problem. Apologies for the 'false alarm' on that aspect. I've definitely seen broken formatting before, but haven't clicked through to check where the issue was. I'll keep an eye out for it again.
That said, my point was mainly about the difficulty of actually working out how to interact with posts from a different instance (especially one running different software), rather than about the actual content of the federated messages.
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Honestly I think that if interoperability between different types of federated platforms Just Worked people would "understand" it more intuitively, because they'd see it in action instead of it having to be explained to them as an abstract concept.
I'm a fairly tech-savvy user, and I perfectly understand what federation is and how it works on a technical level, but even I find the UI aspects often confusing or downright impossible to figure out.
For example, I saw this thread from my Mastodon client because I followed the ActivityPub topic on this forum from my Mastodon account. In my Mastodon client the posts appear as boosts, but mostly with broken HTML formatting. I clicked through to this forum to read the thread properly. I then wanted to "like" / +1 a post, so I copied the permalink into my Mastodon client like I would for a post on a different Mastodon instance, but it couldn't find anything. In the end I had to log into my local account on this forum instead.Don't get me wrong, the UI problems are very difficult to get right. But I think they're more important than documentation. When it Just Works, people will grok it and documentation/explanation won't be needed.
caesar Yep that's it in a nutshell, nailed it, when it hits the "it just works" moment, this affords intuitive mass adoption
Getting to that point is filled with blood sweat and tears.
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I had the opportunity to work with the team at OpenBeta on the re-launching of their community forums. They're one of our earliest v4 testers, since they've agreed to have ActivityPub enabled!
(Okay, more realistically I dragged them into it kicking and screaming, but they did provide the opportunity for the forum relaunch, so I'm taking the opportunities as they come!)
During the prep, I discussed some of the well-trodden concept of the fediverse to my co-admin, Ben (bean@community.openbeta.io and also bean@uvix.cc)... stuff I'm sure you've come across:
- Fragmented nature of conversations
- The idea of an instance
- Content discovery with respect to the follow-relationship model
... and wouldn't you know it, it's really hard to discuss these ideas, and Ben is actually fairly well-versed! He ran his own Iceshrimp instance, so all of this wasn't exactly new to him.
Part of it was that I had been steeped in the ActivityPub dev scene for almost a year, so it's hard to step back and explain to
mere mortalslaymennon-developers what exactly all this ActivityPub nonsense is.All I know it gets me thinking that I need to work with andypiper@macaw.social on documentation!
That new NodeBB instance, by the way, is https://community.openbeta.io
Good points, and want to add, as credit to julian , what he's building is complex.
Not many developers could do it.
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julian Here's the one I saw today: https://indieweb.social/@omega@community.nodebb.org/113101718634936122
However, I now see that the broken HTML appears in the original post on this forum, so it's not a federation problem. Apologies for the 'false alarm' on that aspect. I've definitely seen broken formatting before, but haven't clicked through to check where the issue was. I'll keep an eye out for it again.
That said, my point was mainly about the difficulty of actually working out how to interact with posts from a different instance (especially one running different software), rather than about the actual content of the federated messages.
caesar okay, how about the permalink issue? Can you show me the link you tried to paste into Mastodon? That definitely should work. That's a fairly standard flow (which is already janky, and can be improved)
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caesar okay, how about the permalink issue? Can you show me the link you tried to paste into Mastodon? That definitely should work. That's a fairly standard flow (which is already janky, and can be improved)
julian it was this one: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/explaining-the-fediverse-is-a-hard-problem/4462/7
It's a Discourse post (and thus problem) rather than a NodeBB one, but it illustrates the point of the general jankiness of inter-platform interaction on the fediverse: if I copy the permalink of your post above into my Mastodon instance, it finds it and I can reply, but if I copy the permalink of a Discourse post from the same thread, it doesn't work. -
Good points, and want to add, as credit to julian , what he's building is complex.
Not many developers could do it.eeeee Absolutely, and julian has my deepest respect for that. Like I mentioned, the UI for inter-platform interactions is definitely a really tricky problem to solve in an intuitive way, and I don't think any Fediverse platform has managed it yet. (I'm very interested in this because I'm starting to consider similar issues as they relate to the Fediverse implementation in Forgejo.)
